PV vs CV water heaters?

[DANgER ()]

So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...

What do you guys think?

-CanadianHeat


--
--------------------------------- --- -- -
Posted with NewsLeecher v3.7 Final
Web @ http://www.newsleecher.com/?usenet
------------------- ----- ---- -- -

[Steve Scott]

The worst thing about a atmospheric vented water heater is the HUGE
standby loss. I imagine a PV WH is better in that regard. The
"problem" with a PV WH is they've got to be using fairly large amount
of possibly conditioned air to reduce the flue gas temp to the point
to where it's not excessive for the PVC.

We see lots of boilers and use an indirect fired WH in almost every
instance. Standby loss down to 1/4ºF per hour depending on the WH.

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat

[Bubba]

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat

I didnt know there was a debate.
Power-vented doesnt save money over atmospheric.
The power-vented is usually twice as expensive as the atmospheric.
Go with a tankless.
.............and No, I dont have one........yet.
Bubba

[jamesgangnc]

Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

Post by Bubba

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat

I didnt know there was a debate.
Power-vented doesnt save money over atmospheric.
The power-vented is usually twice as expensive as the atmospheric.
Go with a tankless.
.............and No, I dont have one........yet.
Bubba

[Steve Scott]

The endless hot water thing is hype. Any WH can run out of hot water.
A 100kbtuh WH will only deliver a little over 2gpm continuous flow at
a 75F temp rise.

On 22 Dec 2006 05:42:26 -0800, "jamesgangnc"

Post by jamesgangnc
Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

Post by Bubba

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat

I didnt know there was a debate.
Power-vented doesnt save money over atmospheric.
The power-vented is usually twice as expensive as the atmospheric.
Go with a tankless.
.............and No, I dont have one........yet.
Bubba

[jamesgangnc]

I didn't mean to suggest it was unlimited by saying endless. Within
it's gpm limitations a tankless will go on delivering hot water for as
long as you want. It won't "run out" because it keeps heating new
water. You can draw 2 gpm for as long as you want. You might run out
of money to buy the gas though :-)

Post by Steve Scott
The endless hot water thing is hype. Any WH can run out of hot water.
A 100kbtuh WH will only deliver a little over 2gpm continuous flow at
a 75F temp rise.
On 22 Dec 2006 05:42:26 -0800, "jamesgangnc"

Post by jamesgangnc
Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

Post by Bubba

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat

I didnt know there was a debate.
Power-vented doesnt save money over atmospheric.
The power-vented is usually twice as expensive as the atmospheric.
Go with a tankless.
.............and No, I dont have one........yet.
Bubba

--
Keep your feet close to the ground.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Post by jamesgangnc
Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

When water is heated, the minerals drop out of it.
Tankless heaters get a build-up of minerals much like a persons veins do
with hardening of the arteries.
They should be flushed out with a vinegar solution every year(the tank, not
your veins.Veins should be flushed with copious amounts of Stella Artois).
This is just one more reason to stay away from them.
If you place your hand on the side of a conventional type of tank ,you will
notice that there is very little heat transfer due to the high insulation
value of most tanks.
Turn off your water heater and you'll still have hot water 8 hours later.
Tankless heaters are popular in Europe mostly due to space constraints.
They are not a good idea unless you need the extra room.

[w***@rogers.com]

Finally some good advice re tankless wtr htrs. The reason they have a
problem with mineral clogging is because of how they work. They
regulate the flow and pressure to ensure that the water comes out at
120 F for example. When you heat water and change the pressure,
minerals tend to drop out. Ground/water source heat pumps can also
have that problem.

Tankless water heaters require very high firing rates, at least in the
north where the entering water temperature is 50 F or lower, to give
us the amount/volume of hot water most people are used to. In many
cases, around 200,000 Btuh or more is required to do that. In many
existing homes the gas piping will not accommodate this along with a
gas furnace and other appliances without a piping up-grade, adding
further to their already high cost.

The standby losses through the tank walls for a conventional or power
vented gas water heaters is about 6-7%. Most of that loss is inside
the building envelope and in many areas reduces the normal heating
load of the furnace. During the AC season it can add to the AC load,
a minor problem in the north and a non-issue in most homes with
basement installations.

It is also difficult to find a service contractor who knows how to fix
the ductless units, especially since there are so many brands out
there. I also imagine parts availability can be a problem in many
areas. Part prices may also be very high.

Most people that try the tankless water heaters are not happy with the
flow rate they get. We have often had to remove many of them and
replace them with a regular PV model.

Where I live, the average family spends about $350 a year for gas hot
water heating. Conventional gas water heaters can be installed for
somewhere between $600 and $700. A tankless water heater might save
$150 a year in this example. At that rate, the payback period will be
quite long, not even counting the annual acid flush and other repairs
that WILL be necessary over its life. Very little goes wrong with a
conventional water heater - we ought to know as we rent out well over
a million of the things.

Having said that, one day in the not to distant future, I will think
we will see them become the norm in new construction, especially as
the short comings get addressed.


On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:56:41 GMT, "Bob_Loblaw"

Post by Bob_Loblaw

Post by jamesgangnc
Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

When water is heated, the minerals drop out of it.
Tankless heaters get a build-up of minerals much like a persons veins do
with hardening of the arteries.
They should be flushed out with a vinegar solution every year(the tank, not
your veins.Veins should be flushed with copious amounts of Stella Artois).
This is just one more reason to stay away from them.
If you place your hand on the side of a conventional type of tank ,you will
notice that there is very little heat transfer due to the high insulation
value of most tanks.
Turn off your water heater and you'll still have hot water 8 hours later.
Tankless heaters are popular in Europe mostly due to space constraints.
They are not a good idea unless you need the extra room.

[daytona°]

You have a very good point. BUT in alot of cases for us, we have installed
TWH's for unlimited hot water usage. Took out (2) 50 gal atmospheric HWT's
(in a LARGE house) and installed (1) Noritz N-132M (13.2 gal per minute) The
Dr wanted the biggest. He had 5 baths (3 whirlpool tubs) 5 children and the
story goes on. Installed with the option flush kit and remote controller.
Ended up with all hot water taps opened with 132° at all taps. Dr happy and
paid the bill (cash). We have been once to flush appliance...routine
maintenance. He has said his gas bill is down and the consumption is also
down. Maybe a few of the kids moved out :o)

Post by w***@rogers.com
Finally some good advice re tankless wtr htrs. The reason they have a
problem with mineral clogging is because of how they work. They
regulate the flow and pressure to ensure that the water comes out at
120 F for example. When you heat water and change the pressure,
minerals tend to drop out. Ground/water source heat pumps can also
have that problem.
Tankless water heaters require very high firing rates, at least in the
north where the entering water temperature is 50 F or lower, to give
us the amount/volume of hot water most people are used to. In many
cases, around 200,000 Btuh or more is required to do that. In many
existing homes the gas piping will not accommodate this along with a
gas furnace and other appliances without a piping up-grade, adding
further to their already high cost.
The standby losses through the tank walls for a conventional or power
vented gas water heaters is about 6-7%. Most of that loss is inside
the building envelope and in many areas reduces the normal heating
load of the furnace. During the AC season it can add to the AC load,
a minor problem in the north and a non-issue in most homes with
basement installations.
It is also difficult to find a service contractor who knows how to fix
the ductless units, especially since there are so many brands out
there. I also imagine parts availability can be a problem in many
areas. Part prices may also be very high.
Most people that try the tankless water heaters are not happy with the
flow rate they get. We have often had to remove many of them and
replace them with a regular PV model.
Where I live, the average family spends about $350 a year for gas hot
water heating. Conventional gas water heaters can be installed for
somewhere between $600 and $700. A tankless water heater might save
$150 a year in this example. At that rate, the payback period will be
quite long, not even counting the annual acid flush and other repairs
that WILL be necessary over its life. Very little goes wrong with a
conventional water heater - we ought to know as we rent out well over
a million of the things.
Having said that, one day in the not to distant future, I will think
we will see them become the norm in new construction, especially as
the short comings get addressed.
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:56:41 GMT, "Bob_Loblaw"

Post by Bob_Loblaw

Post by jamesgangnc
Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

When water is heated, the minerals drop out of it.
Tankless heaters get a build-up of minerals much like a persons veins do
with hardening of the arteries.
They should be flushed out with a vinegar solution every year(the tank, not
your veins.Veins should be flushed with copious amounts of Stella Artois).
This is just one more reason to stay away from them.
If you place your hand on the side of a conventional type of tank ,you will
notice that there is very little heat transfer due to the high insulation
value of most tanks.
Turn off your water heater and you'll still have hot water 8 hours later.
Tankless heaters are popular in Europe mostly due to space constraints.
They are not a good idea unless you need the extra room.

[w***@rogers.com]

That Noritz unit must have a whopper of a firing rate? What is the
Btuh input? There was no doubt once we got past the tiny output Euro
models, with good reliability and a big enough gas line, these
instaneous water heaters would be the way to go. 13.2 gallon per
minute at what incoming water temperature. We run about 45F or less
here in winter and 50F in summer.

Post by daytona°
You have a very good point. BUT in alot of cases for us, we have installed
TWH's for unlimited hot water usage. Took out (2) 50 gal atmospheric HWT's
(in a LARGE house) and installed (1) Noritz N-132M (13.2 gal per minute) The
Dr wanted the biggest. He had 5 baths (3 whirlpool tubs) 5 children and the
story goes on. Installed with the option flush kit and remote controller.
Ended up with all hot water taps opened with 132° at all taps. Dr happy and
paid the bill (cash). We have been once to flush appliance...routine
maintenance. He has said his gas bill is down and the consumption is also
down. Maybe a few of the kids moved out :o)

Post by w***@rogers.com
Finally some good advice re tankless wtr htrs. The reason they have a
problem with mineral clogging is because of how they work. They
regulate the flow and pressure to ensure that the water comes out at
120 F for example. When you heat water and change the pressure,
minerals tend to drop out. Ground/water source heat pumps can also
have that problem.
Tankless water heaters require very high firing rates, at least in the
north where the entering water temperature is 50 F or lower, to give
us the amount/volume of hot water most people are used to. In many
cases, around 200,000 Btuh or more is required to do that. In many
existing homes the gas piping will not accommodate this along with a
gas furnace and other appliances without a piping up-grade, adding
further to their already high cost.
The standby losses through the tank walls for a conventional or power
vented gas water heaters is about 6-7%. Most of that loss is inside
the building envelope and in many areas reduces the normal heating
load of the furnace. During the AC season it can add to the AC load,
a minor problem in the north and a non-issue in most homes with
basement installations.
It is also difficult to find a service contractor who knows how to fix
the ductless units, especially since there are so many brands out
there. I also imagine parts availability can be a problem in many
areas. Part prices may also be very high.
Most people that try the tankless water heaters are not happy with the
flow rate they get. We have often had to remove many of them and
replace them with a regular PV model.
Where I live, the average family spends about $350 a year for gas hot
water heating. Conventional gas water heaters can be installed for
somewhere between $600 and $700. A tankless water heater might save
$150 a year in this example. At that rate, the payback period will be
quite long, not even counting the annual acid flush and other repairs
that WILL be necessary over its life. Very little goes wrong with a
conventional water heater - we ought to know as we rent out well over
a million of the things.
Having said that, one day in the not to distant future, I will think
we will see them become the norm in new construction, especially as
the short comings get addressed.
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:56:41 GMT, "Bob_Loblaw"

Post by Bob_Loblaw

Post by jamesgangnc
Tankless gas is less efficient at heating the water. If the usage is
infrequent then the savings from not having to keep the water hot
outweighs that. In a normal household that is not usually the case.
There is the added advantage of never running out of hot water though.

When water is heated, the minerals drop out of it.
Tankless heaters get a build-up of minerals much like a persons veins do
with hardening of the arteries.
They should be flushed out with a vinegar solution every year(the tank, not
your veins.Veins should be flushed with copious amounts of Stella Artois).
This is just one more reason to stay away from them.
If you place your hand on the side of a conventional type of tank ,you will
notice that there is very little heat transfer due to the high insulation
value of most tanks.
Turn off your water heater and you'll still have hot water 8 hours later.
Tankless heaters are popular in Europe mostly due to space constraints.
They are not a good idea unless you need the extra room.

[Victor H Plank]

Post by Bubba
I didnt know there was a debate.
Power-vented doesnt save money over atmospheric.
The power-vented is usually twice as expensive as the atmospheric.
Go with a tankless.
.............and No, I dont have one........yet.
Bubba

Bubba:
About 8 years ago I replaced existing gas water heater with a power vented
gas water heater. Same capacity and same BTU input. Youngest daughter was
senior in high school. Gas bill dropped about 15% taking degree days and
such into account. When she went to college the next year gas bill dropped
another 5%.

Just speaking from experience.

Cost was about $100.00 more than regular vented.

Merry Christmas

Vic

[Bubba]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:43:32 -0500, "Victor H Plank"

Post by Victor H Plank

Post by Bubba
I didnt know there was a debate.
Power-vented doesnt save money over atmospheric.
The power-vented is usually twice as expensive as the atmospheric.
Go with a tankless.
.............and No, I dont have one........yet.
Bubba

About 8 years ago I replaced existing gas water heater with a power vented
gas water heater. Same capacity and same BTU input. Youngest daughter was
senior in high school. Gas bill dropped about 15% taking degree days and
such into account. When she went to college the next year gas bill dropped
another 5%.
Just speaking from experience.
Cost was about $100.00 more than regular vented.
Merry Christmas
Vic

8 yrs ago is a lifetime in technology today.
Today, a 50 gal gas water heater cost me more than what I used to sell
them installed for.
Im not going to argue but I dont think you could accurately calculate
that 15%.
When your daughter left..........certainlly Id believe a 5% savings.
That goes without saying.
About a yr ago, water heaters went up about $100 just to cover the new
safety standards they built into them.
If you purchase a 75 gal pwr vented gas water heater installed from
me, you will think you just bought a new high efficiency furnace.
Cost of both are about the same my cost.
Water heaters are out of sight anymore.
Bubba

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

Post by Bubba
Water heaters are out of sight anymore.

Here, the electric ones are quite commonplace...

Funny thing, I had packed one from an old rental place around for nearly 25
years...cause I was in a hurry to replace it....and was no time to
troubleshoot at the moment...

Well, the heater recently went out in the shop, and so finally the time
came--and I found a loose wire there where it attaches to the lower element.

Total cost= FREE (plus yesterday's alrerady spent dollars )....

--

[Elocin]

I’m looking to change from chimney vented to power vent and the rental per month goes up from $17 to $35, plus tax is there a huge saving?

[chiggorrt]

Goddam Canadians

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat
--
--------------------------------- --- -- -
Posted with NewsLeecher v3.7 Final
------------------- ----- ---- -- -

[DANgER ()]

I've taken some training on a rinnai tankless. I wondered how well
they would hold up. Japaneese seem to have built a good machine from
what I saw. I have yet to get to install or service one though.
Thanks for the input about them Bob. I guess maintenance will be
the big issue.
Vic your numbers are useless for my original question. I don't pay
for gas so I never really get a chance to see LOL

-CanadianHeat


--
--------------------------------- --- -- -
Posted with NewsLeecher v3.7 Final
Web @ http://www.newsleecher.com/?usenet
------------------- ----- ---- -- -

[AKS]

Question: what happens with furnace when vent fails to open??????
from Dido

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat
--
--------------------------------- --- -- -
Posted with NewsLeecher v3.7 Final
------------------- ----- ---- -- -

[Bubba]

My guess is Dildo's dick falls off and then he has to call his mommy?
Go lick a window first.
Bubba

Post by AKS
Question: what happens with furnace when vent fails to open??????
from Dido

Post by DANgER ()
So what do you guys think about the water heater debate? I
constantly get customers who have paid big bucks to have their home
audited and tested for efficiency ect...They tell the customer to
replace their conventional vented water heater with a power vented
one. I think a lot of people assume the power vent is high
efficiency because of the plastic vent. It doesn't condense so
obviously it's not. I have tested both using flue gas analyss,
found they run 75-80%. The power vent needs 120v though, so I lean
towards the PV actually being less efficient. Faster recovery time
though, lower input...so I dunno , confused...
What do you guys think?
-CanadianHeat
--
--------------------------------- --- -- -
Posted with NewsLeecher v3.7 Final
------------------- ----- ---- -- -

[Bob_Loblaw]

Post by AKS
Question: what happens with furnace when vent fails to open??????
from Dido

What furnace has a vent that closes?
If you're refering to a vent damper, then you shouldn't have a license if
you don't know the answer.

[Oscar_Lives]

Post by Bob_Loblaw

Post by AKS
Question: what happens with furnace when vent fails to open??????
from Dido

What furnace has a vent that closes?
If you're refering to a vent damper, then you shouldn't have a license if
you don't know the answer.
--
Respectfully, Bob

No, he is talking about the return vents on the upper level that he closes
to help the air conditioner cool better.

I figgered that he thinks that the "cold air return" vents will let all the
cold air return to the lower level, so he wants to trap it upstairs.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Post by Oscar_Lives
No, he is talking about the return vents on the upper level that he
closes to help the air conditioner cool better.
I figgered that he thinks that the "cold air return" vents will let
all the cold air return to the lower level, so he wants to trap it
upstairs.

Honestly, I doubt even he knows what he means!! LOL

[AKS]

If you two can see beyond tip of nose you would understand
that my "question" was not question it was comet.
but your knowledge is overtaking by selfishness and arrogance
Have happy holiday Gents
Dido

Post by Oscar_Lives

Post by Bob_Loblaw

Post by AKS
Question: what happens with furnace when vent fails to open??????
from Dido

What furnace has a vent that closes?
If you're refering to a vent damper, then you shouldn't have a license if
you don't know the answer.
--
Respectfully, Bob

No, he is talking about the return vents on the upper level that he closes
to help the air conditioner cool better.
I figgered that he thinks that the "cold air return" vents will let all
the cold air return to the lower level, so he wants to trap it upstairs.

[Oscar_Lives]

Post by AKS
If you two can see beyond tip of nose you would understand
that my "question" was not question it was comet.

Stormin' is the one with the comet. Go to his house-- the comet train
leaves in a few days...

Post by AKS
but your knowledge is overtaking by selfishness and arrogance
Have happy holiday Gents
Dildo

Hey Dildo,

For the Christmas holliday,
GO FUCK YOURSELF ASSHOLE!

Post by AKS

Post by Oscar_Lives

Post by Bob_Loblaw

Post by AKS
Question: what happens with furnace when vent fails to open??????
from Dido

What furnace has a vent that closes?
If you're refering to a vent damper, then you shouldn't have a license if
you don't know the answer.
--
Respectfully, Bob

No, he is talking about the return vents on the upper level that he
closes to help the air conditioner cool better.
I figgered that he thinks that the "cold air return" vents will let all
the cold air return to the lower level, so he wants to trap it upstairs.