Discussion:
Most efficient water heater?
(too old to reply)
Don Wiss
2008-03-17 00:27:22 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
these are my choice:

ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent

But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.

So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Bubba
2008-03-17 01:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
You forgot the Vertex Power Vent water heater at 90% efficiency
The Promax Closed Combustion Power Direct vent means you have 2 pvc
pipes. One brings air in for combustion. The other pipe vents the flue
gasses out.
The Promax Power vent C3 FVIR is just a single pipe water heater with
the technology to stop gasoline tank vapors from exploding due to
those retarded people that like to store paint and gas cans next to
their water heater. Goverment required.
The Power House sealed vents further and has two pipes.
The Power House Power Shot is a single pipe that vents further.
All those have 6 year tanks and parts
The vertex is going to be the most efficient and the most expensive to
purchase.
Bubba
Don Wiss
2008-03-17 02:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bubba
Post by Don Wiss
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
You forgot the Vertex Power Vent water heater at 90% efficiency
Hi Bubba,

Okay. I see that I missed it. And it clearly stands at the top (for
residential heaters). I find for venting:

• 2" pipe, vents up to 25 equivalent feet
• 3" pipe, vents up to 65 equivalent feet
• 4" pipe, vents up to 128 equivalent feet

What are "equivalent feet?" Or how many feet does a right angle count as?

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

P.S. For those curious as to what Bubba and I are discussing:

http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/rg-vertex.html

Instructions: http://www.hotwater.com/lit/im/media/res_gas/197423-002.pdf

Spec sheet: http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01306.pdf
Bubba
2008-03-17 11:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Bubba
Post by Don Wiss
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
You forgot the Vertex Power Vent water heater at 90% efficiency
Hi Bubba,
Okay. I see that I missed it. And it clearly stands at the top (for
• 2" pipe, vents up to 25 equivalent feet
• 3" pipe, vents up to 65 equivalent feet
• 4" pipe, vents up to 128 equivalent feet
What are "equivalent feet?" Or how many feet does a right angle count as?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/rg-vertex.html
Instructions: http://www.hotwater.com/lit/im/media/res_gas/197423-002.pdf
Spec sheet: http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01306.pdf
Equivelant feet is the pipe length plus the elbows or 45"s. The elbow
is usually 2.5 feet for a long radius or 5 feet for a short raduis 90.
Bubba
ransley
2008-03-17 01:36:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy factor.
h***@aol.com
2008-03-17 02:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy factor.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tankless have lots of downsides, from delay when you fiorst draw water
till heated water arrives, to poor operation at low flow levels.

standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?

current hoigh efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone
Wayne Whitney
2008-03-17 16:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?
That's not really true, a standard 80% combustion efficient tank
heater has an energy factor of around 0.60, so of the theoretical
heating value of the fuel burned, 20% goes up the flue, and the other
20% is roughly standby losses from the tank. Even an electric tank
water heater, which has a 100% "combustion" efficiency has an energy
factor of 0.91-0.93, so 7%-9% of the energy is lost as standby.

Also, a conventional tank water heater has most of its standby losses
up the flue, which travels through the middle of the tank. This is
why the standby losses are much higher than an electric tank. You
wouldn't notice this by touching the outside of the tank.
Post by h***@aol.com
current high efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone
Combustion efficiency is not the same as energy factor. AO Smith
doesn't have an energy factor rating for the Vertex, they say that
anything about 65,000 BTUs/hr input doesn't need to get rated. One
can guess that the standby losses are less than a conventional water
heater (due to the helical flue in the Vertex), but still more than an
electric. So the energy factor is maybe 0.75-0.80.

For a tankess gas water heater, the standby losses are zero, so the
energy factor is equal to the combustion efficiency. So an 80%
combustion efficient tankless has an energy factor of 0.80.

Yours, Wayne
ransley
2008-03-17 20:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy factor.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tankless have lots of downsides, from delay when you fiorst draw water
till heated water arrives, to poor operation at low flow levels.
standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?
current hoigh efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
S. Barker
2008-03-17 21:13:42 UTC
Permalink
I'll put them down. AND I CAN afford them. All i have to do is ask you
what is the maximum temperature of your hot water in the winter, when the
incoming water is about 39 degrees? There, the argument is over. There's
NO WAY you can get 140 degree water from 39 degree input with a tankless.
And you can't wash dishes properly with 98 degree water. Hell, I'll bet
with 39 degree input, you can't even take a decent hot shower with all hot
and no cold on.


steve

"ransley" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:499c09ed-fd6b-4364-8efe-***@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
Don Ocean
2008-03-18 03:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by S. Barker
I'll put them down. AND I CAN afford them. All i have to do is ask you
what is the maximum temperature of your hot water in the winter, when the
incoming water is about 39 degrees? There, the argument is over. There's
NO WAY you can get 140 degree water from 39 degree input with a tankless.
And you can't wash dishes properly with 98 degree water. Hell, I'll bet
with 39 degree input, you can't even take a decent hot shower with all hot
and no cold on.
Yes you can get 140ºF water... But is has to be on full burn between
300,000Btuh and 450,000 BTUH and your not saving a damned thing on
energy. One of the best savers for scheduled families is a super
insulated electric water heater with a brooder house timer allowing it
to run 1/2 hour in the morning and 1/2 hour in the evening. I am talking
about 1 full foot of foam encapsulation even on the bottom. These were
experimented with back in the 1980's and worked just fine. Of course you
could paint some 55 gallon drums of water black and set them out in the
sun. ;-p
Post by S. Barker
steve
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
ransley
2008-03-18 13:53:50 UTC
Permalink
I'll put them down.  AND I CAN afford them.  All i have to do is ask you
what is the maximum temperature of your hot water in the winter, when the
incoming water is about 39 degrees?  There, the argument is over.  There's
NO WAY you can get 140 degree water from 39 degree input with a tankless.
And you can't wash dishes properly with 98 degree water.  Hell, I'll bet
with 39 degree input, you can't even take a decent hot shower with all hot
and no cold on.
steve
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one.  The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
Here we go again, sombody who does not have a clue to the facts, has
not used one, but can give false information putting them down. I have
a water main incomming on a hill which is too close to the surface
since dirt is going away, when its -10f out my incomming has gotten to
34f. I dont even have my small 117000 btu Bosch on high and the shower
is great. Look at specs, 90f rise is what you can get, 130f water is
to hot and a waste of money. 98f with 39f incomming is only 59f rise,
far short of 90f rise which my unit does, and I have measured it.
Consider something else, Tanks loose 1-3% efficency every year due to
scale buildup at the bottom of the tank, I recently removed a maybe 25
yr old tank with 13" of rock scale in it, I bet it was only 50%
efficent, Tankless dont hold scale, Tankless you just pur in Lime Away
through a valve you add, a simple 30 minute procedure to keep it 100%
efficent 25 years down the road, you cant clean out most tank units.
Tanks loose efficency every year and you cant stop it by flushing it.
Jeffrey Lebowski
2008-03-19 06:28:09 UTC
Permalink
I'll put them down. AND I CAN afford them. All i have to do is ask you
what is the maximum temperature of your hot water in the winter, when the
incoming water is about 39 degrees? There, the argument is over. There's
NO WAY you can get 140 degree water from 39 degree input with a tankless.
And you can't wash dishes properly with 98 degree water. Hell, I'll bet
with 39 degree input, you can't even take a decent hot shower with all hot
and no cold on.
steve
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
Here we go again, sombody who does not have a clue to the facts, has
not used one, but can give false information putting them down. I have
a water main incomming on a hill which is too close to the surface
since dirt is going away, when its -10f out my incomming has gotten to
34f. I dont even have my small 117000 btu Bosch on high and the shower
is great. Look at specs, 90f rise is what you can get, 130f water is
to hot and a waste of money. 98f with 39f incomming is only 59f rise,
far short of 90f rise which my unit does, and I have measured it.
Consider something else, Tanks loose 1-3% efficency every year due to
scale buildup at the bottom of the tank, I recently removed a maybe 25
yr old tank with 13" of rock scale in it, I bet it was only 50%
efficent, Tankless dont hold scale, Tankless you just pur in Lime Away
through a valve you add, a simple 30 minute procedure to keep it 100%
efficent 25 years down the road, you cant clean out most tank units.
Tanks loose efficency every year and you cant stop it by flushing it.

YOu stupid fuck in the perfect whirl heat is either gained or lost at the
toilet depends on how warm your turd was and incoming water temp.

--
Don Ocean
2008-03-18 03:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy factor.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tankless have lots of downsides, from delay when you fiorst draw water
till heated water arrives, to poor operation at low flow levels.
standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?
current hoigh efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
A tankless heater is expensive..Its expensive and fairly complicated to
hook one up.. It has somewhere in the region of a 300,000 BTUH burner/or
elements. It is expensive to repair.. And its lifespan is about the same
as a good standard tank heater. Also a Gas Tankless will not operate
without Electricity. When we lose electric..That means the furnace will
not run.. So we depend on a free standing water heater to save the
house. Fill the sinks and tubs with hot water and redo when it cools
off. Also run Gas range and oven. If we lose NGas, it isn't much of a
problem to do a fast changeover to propane or butane. Generators are a
pain in the ass and most families don't have one or at least a properly
maintained generator . A standard tank water heater is somewhere in the
vicinity of being a 40,000 furnace. I have tracked Tankless changeover
operating costs and despite the wild claims of much cheaper.. not so...
In the average family home of 3-1/2 people using hot water normally it
comes pretty close to being the same and without all the complications
fronted by the Tankless folks. The ones I have tracked are Rinnai and
GE. Anyone else had experience with these units. Do keep in mind that
the ones that save a great deal of money are the old European ones..
Very simple and needs no logic or electric ignition system.. Shower time
must be very short. They also use them for hydroponic heat of smaller
homes. I had a German made one(Made in 1949) in a 890 sq ft well
insulated house. It had a ceramic heated exchanger and was replaced in
1994 as no repair parts were available. It furnished heat and hot
water..It hung on the basement wall and looked much like a white
outboard motor with no drive shaft. That little heater never exceeded
$50 a month. Keep in mind you cannot sell that in America.. Fucking
people take their surf board to shower in this country and make a day of it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
ransley
2008-03-18 14:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy factor.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tankless have lots of downsides, from delay when you fiorst draw water
till heated water arrives, to poor operation at low flow levels.
standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?
current hoigh efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one.  The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
A tankless heater is expensive..Its expensive and fairly complicated to
hook one up.. It has somewhere in the region of a 300,000 BTUH burner/or
elements. It is expensive to repair.. And its lifespan is about the same
as a good standard tank heater. Also a Gas Tankless will not operate
without Electricity. When we lose electric..That means the furnace will
not run.. So we depend on a free standing water heater to save the
house. Fill the sinks and tubs with hot water and redo when it cools
off. Also run Gas range and oven. If we lose NGas, it isn't much of a
problem to do a fast changeover to propane or butane. Generators are a
pain in the ass and most families don't have one or at least a properly
maintained generator . A standard tank water heater is somewhere in the
vicinity of being a 40,000 furnace. I have tracked Tankless changeover
operating costs and despite the wild claims of much cheaper.. not so...
In the average family home of 3-1/2 people using hot water normally it
comes pretty close to being the same and without all the complications
fronted by the Tankless folks. The ones I have tracked are Rinnai and
GE. Anyone else had experience with these units. Do keep in mind that
the ones that save a great deal of money are the old European ones..
Very simple and needs no logic or electric ignition system.. Shower time
must be very short. They also use them for hydroponic heat of smaller
homes. I had a German made one(Made in 1949) in a 890 sq ft well
insulated house. It had a ceramic heated exchanger and was replaced in
1994 as no repair parts were available. It furnished heat and hot
water..It hung on the basement wall and looked much like a white
outboard motor with no drive shaft. That little heater never exceeded
$50 a month. Keep in mind you cannot sell that in America.. Fucking
people take their surf board to shower in this country and make a day of it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A 117000 btu Bosch battery ignition needs no AC electric and vents up
a chimney. It wont do 2 showers with 40 f incoming but is maybe 500
with tax. I have the 117000 Bosch C cell Battery ignition unit im
happy. Yes savings are less with a large family but I am getting a
maybe 4-5 yr payback from electric tank
Don Ocean
2008-03-19 04:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy factor.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tankless have lots of downsides, from delay when you fiorst draw water
till heated water arrives, to poor operation at low flow levels.
standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?
current hoigh efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
A tankless heater is expensive..Its expensive and fairly complicated to
hook one up.. It has somewhere in the region of a 300,000 BTUH burner/or
elements. It is expensive to repair.. And its lifespan is about the same
as a good standard tank heater. Also a Gas Tankless will not operate
without Electricity. When we lose electric..That means the furnace will
not run.. So we depend on a free standing water heater to save the
house. Fill the sinks and tubs with hot water and redo when it cools
off. Also run Gas range and oven. If we lose NGas, it isn't much of a
problem to do a fast changeover to propane or butane. Generators are a
pain in the ass and most families don't have one or at least a properly
maintained generator . A standard tank water heater is somewhere in the
vicinity of being a 40,000 furnace. I have tracked Tankless changeover
operating costs and despite the wild claims of much cheaper.. not so...
In the average family home of 3-1/2 people using hot water normally it
comes pretty close to being the same and without all the complications
fronted by the Tankless folks. The ones I have tracked are Rinnai and
GE. Anyone else had experience with these units. Do keep in mind that
the ones that save a great deal of money are the old European ones..
Very simple and needs no logic or electric ignition system.. Shower time
must be very short. They also use them for hydroponic heat of smaller
homes. I had a German made one(Made in 1949) in a 890 sq ft well
insulated house. It had a ceramic heated exchanger and was replaced in
1994 as no repair parts were available. It furnished heat and hot
water..It hung on the basement wall and looked much like a white
outboard motor with no drive shaft. That little heater never exceeded
$50 a month. Keep in mind you cannot sell that in America.. Fucking
people take their surf board to shower in this country and make a day of it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A 117000 btu Bosch battery ignition needs no AC electric and vents up
a chimney. It wont do 2 showers with 40 f incoming but is maybe 500
with tax. I have the 117000 Bosch C cell Battery ignition unit im
happy. Yes savings are less with a large family but I am getting a
maybe 4-5 yr payback from electric tank
So if on an early Sunday morning the battery goes dead, No
shower..Great(Sarcasm galore) All gas appliances are required to have a
vent.. Its code and the fire law. (International)
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Jeffrey Lebowski
2008-03-19 06:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Most efficent is tankless since efficency is misleading, the Energy
Factor is what has the most meaning in water heaters , gas tanks of
regular vent and 80+% efficency are around 50-60 energy factor, i dont
know about direct vent though, tankless start around 80 energy
factor.- Hide quoted text -
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
- Show quoted text -
tankless have lots of downsides, from delay when you fiorst draw water
till heated water arrives, to poor operation at low flow levels.
standard tanks actually have very low standby losses, just got touch
your tank hot hot is it?
current hoigh efficency condensing tanks are over 90% efficent. that
should be enough for anyone- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hallerb , have you used a tankless, no I will bet not, you put them
down because you cant afford one and have never used one. The delay
in hot water arriving might be 5 seconds longer than a tank since it
fires in seconds. 90 % efficent , yea the burner is, so how can you
explain 50-60% Energy Factor on tanks and 83-90 on Tankless. As I said
thats more of a true efficency rating, so what if the tank isnt hot,
what do you think goes up the middle of the tank and out the chimney,
heat!
A tankless heater is expensive..Its expensive and fairly complicated to
hook one up.. It has somewhere in the region of a 300,000 BTUH burner/or
elements. It is expensive to repair.. And its lifespan is about the same
as a good standard tank heater. Also a Gas Tankless will not operate
without Electricity. When we lose electric..That means the furnace will
not run.. So we depend on a free standing water heater to save the
house. Fill the sinks and tubs with hot water and redo when it cools
off. Also run Gas range and oven. If we lose NGas, it isn't much of a
problem to do a fast changeover to propane or butane. Generators are a
pain in the ass and most families don't have one or at least a properly
maintained generator . A standard tank water heater is somewhere in the
vicinity of being a 40,000 furnace. I have tracked Tankless changeover
operating costs and despite the wild claims of much cheaper.. not so...
In the average family home of 3-1/2 people using hot water normally it
comes pretty close to being the same and without all the complications
fronted by the Tankless folks. The ones I have tracked are Rinnai and
GE. Anyone else had experience with these units. Do keep in mind that
the ones that save a great deal of money are the old European ones..
Very simple and needs no logic or electric ignition system.. Shower time
must be very short. They also use them for hydroponic heat of smaller
homes. I had a German made one(Made in 1949) in a 890 sq ft well
insulated house. It had a ceramic heated exchanger and was replaced in
1994 as no repair parts were available. It furnished heat and hot
water..It hung on the basement wall and looked much like a white
outboard motor with no drive shaft. That little heater never exceeded
$50 a month. Keep in mind you cannot sell that in America.. Fucking
people take their surf board to shower in this country and make a day of it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A 117000 btu Bosch battery ignition needs no AC electric and vents up
a chimney. It wont do 2 showers with 40 f incoming but is maybe 500
with tax. I have the 117000 Bosch C cell Battery ignition unit im
happy. Yes savings are less with a large family but I am getting a
maybe 4-5 yr payback from electric tank

Yeah your doing so well thinking everyone is so proud of how fucking
effeciently you contribute to the carbon foot print, appreciate do us one
last favor and quit breathing--one less dickwad converting oxygen into CO2.

--
Art
2008-03-17 03:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Whatever you have now, keep it.


Just had to replace a direct vent and estimates were all around $1400 with
just a 6 year tank warranty. Electric would be less than 1/3. I decided to
go with an on demand system to replace the direct vent. It cost around $3k
but at least had a 12 year warranty and normally lasts 20 years.

If you go with a on demand system, consider having the gas company doing it.
Tons of things had to be done including replacing the gas meter. Get a unit
that has a low flow start rate. Stay away from Bosch.

The downside is that the hot water tank was apparently keeping my basement
warm and warming the cold water. So now that cold water in my house is much
colder and so is my basement. An advantage during the summer, disadvantage
during the winter. That is why people think it takes longer for hot water
to show up.... cold water is much colder with an on demand system.

Also if system isn't installed right or you buy wrong one you will get
inadequate flow rate. It gives you unlimited hot water but not immediate or
unlimited flowrate. There are compromises. I like the idea of no tank
though.
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Donna Ohl
2008-03-18 05:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models.
Yes there is.

The whole reason I wrote up my water heater saga was so that others benefit
from all the help people here gave me. One of the references in the thread
was the recent DECEMBER 12, 2007. CONSUMERS' DIRECTORY OF CERTIFIED
EFFICIENCY RATINGS for Residential gas, oil, and electric water heating
equipment.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/8e5a55b7ffa87831/42ae7352780031d7?q=donna+ohl&lnk=ol&
Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:54:32 EST

In that reference PDF are the efficiency ratings for the hundreds of
residential hot water heaters sold in the USA (under a handful of
manufacturers but scores of brands).

I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLau
nch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf
Don Wiss
2008-03-18 09:46:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
ransley
2008-03-18 14:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
Don Ocean
2008-03-19 04:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
2008-03-19 11:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
I have one.

It's electric :-)
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Marc O'Brien
2008-03-19 10:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
        I have one.
        It's electric :-)
Electric are normally about 34% efficient overall, most of the
inefficiency is at the power station.
Don Ocean
2008-03-20 08:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
I have one.
It's electric :-)
I differ to your electrifying disclosure. ;-p
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Bubba
2008-03-19 11:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
AO Smith has the Vertex water heater that gets 90%
Weil-McLain has a boiler that does 98% at low temp
Bubba
Don Ocean
2008-03-20 08:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bubba
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
AO Smith has the Vertex water heater that gets 90%
Weil-McLain has a boiler that does 98% at low temp
Bubba
Both have been proven to be fairy tales. It is all in how its measured.
I have a number of AO Smiths Mexican Vortex's out there and a number of
the same type by Rheem.. Both about the same and the damned electronics
eats the whole card when it goes. It gets even worse when you add the
electric consumption to run the ignito0r and controls. Low temperature
on the Weil-Mclain is almost 100 percent when the thermostat is off. ;-p
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
ransley
2008-03-19 11:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
92-93-94 even 98% water heaters are common even 96% boilers, even a
94% tankless. AO Smith Cyclone tank, Takagi tankless and a Canadian
firm makes a 98% commercial hw boiler, 5 years ago I installed at my
apt a 92% 1900000 btu AO Smith Cyclone. these are all condensing
units,
Donna Ohl
2008-03-20 04:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
98% water heaters are common even 96% boilers
I think the reason for this is somewhat misleading.

If I understand this correctly, almost all the heat energy put into an
electric heater gets put into the water. Basically, the water cools the
heater coils down by taking the heat off the heater coil.

In the case of a gas water heater, the water cools down the flame by taking
heat off the flame (figuratively speaking) but a LOT of heat goes up the
flue.

They baffle the flue to slow down the rising air but they have to let the
hot air out. If they cooled the hot air to room temperature, it wouldn't
rise and get out of the house and that would be a bad thing from the
standpoint of carbon monoxide poisoning.

So, I think the fact that all none of the heat energy that went into the
electric coils goes up any flue - it's all absorbed by the water - is what
makes the electric water heater 98% efficiency.

But, as someone stated, I suspect the power generation is about 70%
efficiency, so, the true efficiency of electric water heating must be
vastly lower than 98% taking distribution into account.

But, how can we account for that true efficiency?

Donna
ransley
2008-03-20 05:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Ohl
Post by ransley
98% water heaters are common even 96% boilers
I think the reason for this is somewhat misleading.
If I understand this correctly, almost all the heat energy put into an
electric heater gets put into the water. Basically, the water cools the
heater coils down by taking the heat off the heater coil.
In the case of a gas water heater, the water cools down the flame by taking
heat off the flame (figuratively speaking) but a LOT of heat goes up the
flue.
They baffle the flue to slow down the rising air but they have to let the
hot air out. If they cooled the hot air to room temperature, it wouldn't
rise and get out of the house and that would be a bad thing from the
standpoint of carbon monoxide poisoning.
So, I think the fact that all none of the heat energy that went into the
electric coils goes up any flue - it's all absorbed by the water - is what
makes the electric water heater 98% efficiency.
But, as someone stated, I suspect the power generation is about 70%
efficiency, so, the true efficiency of electric water heating must be
vastly lower than 98% taking distribution into account.
But, how can we account for that true efficiency?
Donna
Electric are all 100% efficent, all energy consumed is used to heat
water, and energy factor should be near 100 as well with great
insulation. Almost all gas water heaters burners are about 80-83%
efficent, but an additional 17-20% goes up the chimney 24 hrs a day,
Energy Factor ratings account for loss up the center uninsulated flue
part of the tank and reflect overall efficency, which for most gas
tank is 50-60 with one I saw of 70. Condensing gas water heaters,
Boilers, furnaces, are different, have a second exchanger that lowers
flue temp to near room temp and are forced out the flue by a fan. A
condensing 93% water heater wont loose 20% in flue loss since the fan
stopped some of the heat loss, but even the best condensing tank water
heater of 93% may only be 83% Energy Factor [I guess]. Condensing tank
water heaters are really commercial units costing thousands. AO Smith
has them, I own one a 175000 btu unit, a Cyclone. For most, electrics
are and always will be more expensive to run unless you have a cheaper
Hydro Dam nearby, since for most oil- gas products generate
electricity. Someone stated 70% for electric, that is not true to you
for what you consume and pay, he was talking about transmission line
loss, for you electric tank is 100% efficient, but here electricity is
still 30% more than NG. If nobody in your neighboorhood has an
electric furnace then you can bet Ng is still cheaper per Btu. Now in
the last 6 months all petroleum products are going up fast, but
electric will follow in the long run.
CWatters
2008-03-20 08:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Ohl
So, I think the fact that all none of the heat energy that went into the
electric coils goes up any flue - it's all absorbed by the water - is what
makes the electric water heater 98% efficiency.
Correct.
Post by Donna Ohl
But, as someone stated, I suspect the power generation is about 70%
efficiency,
so, the true efficiency of electric water heating must be
Post by Donna Ohl
vastly lower than 98% taking distribution into account.
But, how can we account for that true efficiency?
Donna
Average power generation isn't anything like 70% efficient. Typical
efficiency for a coal fired station is 30-40% with only the latest
generation achieving 60%+. Gas fired around 47% and nuclear around 38%. Then
another 5-6% is lost in transmission. The average depends on what mix your
country has but I can't see it being much above 40-50% overall by the time
it reaches your house.

This web site compares the cost of different fuel sources in the UK. It's
the only site I've seen that takes into account boiler efficiency. The key
figure is the middle one "Pence per kWh after boiler efficiency". The actual
boiler efficiency is in brackets...

http://www.nottenergy.com/energy-costs-comparison2

Note that electric heating is indeed 100% efficient but the cost of that
electricity makes it expensive to run.

Heat Pumps have efficiencies of over 100% and in the case of a ground source
heat pump (GSHP) around 350%. This more than compensates for the loss of
efficiency producing the electricity needed to power. Overall a GSHP is the
cheapest system to run (ignoring capital costs). It would be interesting to
know if anyone makes a small scale gas or oil powered GSHP and how the
efficiency of those compare.

In theory it would _just_ be possible to use the heat from a GSHP to power a
Stirling engine to power the GSHP. This would not violate COE because there
is a heat source (the sun) providing power into the system. However most of
the heat produced by the GSHP would go into the stirling engine with very
little left over to heat your house. Stirling engines that big would also be
rather big physically. Overall such a system would be too big and expensive
to be practical - but it would be free to run.
CWatters
2008-03-20 08:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by CWatters
Post by Donna Ohl
So, I think the fact that all none of the heat energy that went into the
electric coils goes up any flue - it's all absorbed by the water - is what
makes the electric water heater 98% efficiency.
Correct.
Actually it's 100% efficient. I mean your reasoning is correct.
h***@aol.com
2008-03-20 16:19:41 UTC
Permalink
you can get too would up over efficency ratings, nothing is 100% even
electric loses a little to the room.

and one must be aware that cost to buy can exceed savings on whatever
your trying to be more efficent with
Ernest Scribbler
2008-03-20 17:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
you can get too would up over efficency ratings, nothing is 100%
Basically what we're talking about with the efficiency of water heaters is
the percentage of the energy that's put into the system that actually gets
applied to the task of heating water. And, of course, a lot depends on where
you define the boundary of the system.
CWatters
2008-03-20 20:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by CWatters
Post by CWatters
Post by Donna Ohl
So, I think the fact that all none of the heat energy that went into the
electric coils goes up any flue - it's all absorbed by the water - is
what
Post by CWatters
Post by Donna Ohl
makes the electric water heater 98% efficiency.
Correct.
Actually it's 100% efficient. I mean your reasoning is correct.
you can get too would up over efficency ratings, nothing is 100% even
electric loses a little to the room.
Yes I knew I was wrong the moment I posted it. I was thinking of electric
heating and forgot that when heating water some heat would be lost to the
room.
Don Ocean
2008-03-20 08:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by Don Ocean
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
I challenge you to find a water heater efficiency rating NOT in this
36-page listing for a water heater currently sold in the USA.
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAF...
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range. Vertex, I have a several year
old similar AO condensing ccommercial unit but I only know its 92%
efficent or so
I am aware of no water heater approaching 92% efficiency. Way too many
losses to achieve that.. Even Boiler technology can't do that yet>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
92-93-94 even 98% water heaters are common even 96% boilers, even a
94% tankless. AO Smith Cyclone tank, Takagi tankless and a Canadian
firm makes a 98% commercial hw boiler, 5 years ago I installed at my
apt a 92% 1900000 btu AO Smith Cyclone. these are all condensing
units,
Nope.. ;-p
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
h***@aol.com
2008-03-19 12:12:52 UTC
Permalink
on a tankless feeding a regular tank, it should cost no more to
operate than a regular hot water tank.

the tankless initially heats the water to whatever it can, then sends
the water to a regular tank that does its normal job.

endless hot water regular tank conveniences and the only extra cost is
the line between the tankless and regular tank, ideally it should be
short and well insulated.

true the tank will have normal tank losses.

today i have to stop at home depot and while i am there price some hot
water tanks. just to verify some of these issues:)
t***@optonline.net
2008-03-19 13:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
on a tankless feeding a regular tank, it should cost no more to
operate than a regular hot water tank.
Maybe not, but is sure costs a lot more in terms of buying and
installing 2 water heaters, one of which is tankless and more
expensive. With this approach, you incur the higher cost of tankless
and by having the second regular tank, you still have the standby
losses, which defeat most of the advantage of the tankless that
justify it's expense. I fail to see the point. Plenty of folks
have a gas tankless for their whole house needs and are happy with it.
Post by h***@aol.com
the tankless initially heats the water to whatever it can, then sends
the water to a regular tank that does its normal job.
endless hot water regular tank conveniences and the only extra cost is
the line between the tankless and regular tank, ideally it should be
short and well insulated.
true the tank will have normal tank losses.
today i have to stop at home depot and while i am there price some hot
water tanks. just to verify some of these issues:)
ransley
2008-03-19 14:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
on a tankless feeding a regular tank, it should cost no more to
operate than a regular hot water tank.
the tankless initially heats the water to whatever it can, then sends
the water to a regular tank that does its normal job.
endless hot water regular tank conveniences and the only extra cost is
the line between the tankless and regular tank, ideally it should be
short and well insulated.
true the tank will have normal tank losses.
today i have to stop at home depot and while i am there price some hot
water tanks. just to verify some of these issues:)
There is no point to this approach, its backwards and will loose you
all the savings you just paid for. If the tankless and tank are 82%
efficent you are heating with one 82% burner and keeping it warm with
another 82% burner. You are heating with the tankless and allowing it
to cool in the tank, at about a 20% reduction in efficency rating.
Most of what you just paid for in increased efficency goes up the
center of the tank and out the chimney. The tank if hooked up should
before the tankless and only hold water unheated to allow it to warm
up by the surounding air to temper it, it works for me. Even better is
to strip of the insulation on the tank, your basement will always be
warmer then the incomming water main.
ransley
2008-03-19 14:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
on a tankless feeding a regular tank, it should cost no more to
operate than a regular hot water tank.
the tankless initially heats the water to whatever it can, then sends
the water to a regular tank that does its normal job.
endless hot water regular tank conveniences and the only extra cost is
the line between the tankless and regular tank, ideally it should be
short and well insulated.
true the tank will have normal tank losses.
today i have to stop at home depot and while i am there price some hot
water tanks. just to verify some of these issues:)
For pricing a tank look at a cheap uninsulated well tank.
Wayne Whitney
2008-03-19 15:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
on a tankless feeding a regular tank, it should cost no more to
operate than a regular hot water tank. the tankless initially heats
the water to whatever it can, then sends the water to a regular tank
that does its normal job.
A much better way to do this is to get an electric tank water heater,
remove the heating elements, and wire the thermostat to run a pump on
a loop to the tankless heater. Incoming cold and outgoing hot are
from the tank iteslf.

This way, the standby losses are that of an electric tank, which is
less than a gas tank due to the lack of a flue down the middle. An
advantage over tankless only is that the delivered hot water pressure
is higher, because the pressure drop from a tank is noticeably less
than from a tankless.

When I get around to installing solar hot water, this is probably the
way I'm going to go; the solar can be on another loop from the tank.

Cheers, Wayne
ransley
2008-03-19 18:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Whitney
Post by h***@aol.com
on a tankless feeding a regular tank, it should cost no more to
operate than a regular hot water tank.  the tankless initially heats
the water to whatever it can, then sends the water to a regular tank
that does its normal job.
A much better way to do this is to get an electric tank water heater,
remove the heating elements, and wire the thermostat to run a pump on
a loop to the tankless heater.  Incoming cold and outgoing hot are
from the tank iteslf.
This way, the standby losses are that of an electric tank, which is
less than a gas tank due to the lack of a flue down the middle.  An
advantage over tankless only is that the delivered hot water pressure
is higher, because the pressure drop from a tank is noticeably less
than from a tankless.
When I get around to installing solar hot water, this is probably the
way I'm going to go; the solar can be on another loop from the tank.
Cheers, Wayne
No point to having a tank circulate or change anything as that since
you are still talking same burner efficencies, this is dumb.
Donna Ohl
2008-03-20 04:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by Don Wiss
Where's the A.O. Smith Vertex model GPHE-50 that Bubba recommended?
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
I saw one unit near the bottom with an Energy Factor of 70, only a few
in the 60s and most in the 50-60 range.
I should have mentioned that I searched for that PDF during my GAS water
heater replacement. http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d

That PDF only contained residential GAS water heater specifications (very
many hundreds or even a thousand or more).

It did not have any residential ELECTRIC water heater efficiency ratings
(some of which approach 98% due to the fact no heat goes up the flue; it's
all absorbed by the water).

Donna
Blattus Slafaly 0/00 ? ? ?
2008-03-19 14:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
If you're gonna spend lots of money on a water tank you might as well
get an oil fired demand water heater. Gives you unlimited hot water and
no cost to maintain a tank of hot water. If you want to put a tempering
tank in your hot attic save even more.
--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8
Don Wiss
2008-03-19 15:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blattus Slafaly 0/00 ? ? ?
If you're gonna spend lots of money on a water tank you might as well
get an oil fired demand water heater. Gives you unlimited hot water and
no cost to maintain a tank of hot water. If you want to put a tempering
tank in your hot attic save even more.
Uh, where am I going to get oil?

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
h***@aol.com
2008-03-19 18:19:45 UTC
Permalink
my tankless add on was only for use when familiy is visiting, the
remainder of the time my 50 gallon high btu tank is fine.

now 7 people pile in here, and it can become a problem espically when
incoming water temperature is 40 degrees
ransley
2008-03-19 21:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
my tankless add on was only for use when familiy is visiting, the
remainder of the time my 50 gallon high btu tank is fine.
now 7 people pile in here, and it can become a problem espically when
incoming water temperature is 40 degrees
Its alot of money to put in a tankless and not get the savings year
around, first you need to get the supply tested with all other gas
apliances running to be sure no upgrade is neded. Do 2 people shower
now at the same time, I dont think you will benefit having a tankless
before a tank and it will actualy cost more to run since both units
burners are probably near in efficency, I put my tankless after my
tank with bypass valves incase my old tank leaks, but i havnt used it
since installing the tankless, the cheap Bosch.
h***@aol.com
2008-03-20 03:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
my tankless add on was only for use when familiy is visiting, the
remainder of the time my 50 gallon high btu tank is fine.
now 7 people pile in here, and it can become a problem espically when
incoming water temperature is 40 degrees
Its alot of money to put in a tankless and not get the savings year
around, first you need to get the supply tested with all other gas
apliances running to be sure no upgrade is neded. Do 2 people shower
now at the same time, I dont think you will benefit having a tankless
before a tank and it will actualy cost more to run since both units
burners are probably near in efficency, I put my tankless after my
tank with bypass valves incase my old tank leaks, but i havnt used it
since installing the tankless, the cheap Bosch.
its more of a idle thought, the minor standby losses of a regular tank
dont bother me, and our tank is plenty big enough, except when family
visits. with washing clothes, doing laundry and showering its a busy
hot water using place. and our showers have the flow restrictors
removed.....

but a new kitchen dining room gut job is a lot more likely and
probably better of use of money:) kinda nervous the economy may hurt
our income:( and gasoline is killing my service business
ransley
2008-03-20 04:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
my tankless add on was only for use when familiy is visiting, the
remainder of the time my 50 gallon high btu tank is fine.
now 7 people pile in here, and it can become a problem espically when
incoming water temperature is 40 degrees
Its alot of money to put in a tankless and not get the savings year
around, first you need to get the supply tested with all other gas
apliances running to be sure no upgrade is neded. Do 2 people shower
now at the same time, I dont think you will benefit having a tankless
before a tank and it will actualy cost more to run since both units
burners are probably near in efficency, I put my tankless after my
tank with bypass valves incase my old tank leaks, but i havnt used it
since installing the tankless, the cheap Bosch.
its more of a idle thought, the minor standby losses of a regular tank
dont bother me, and our tank is plenty big enough, except when family
visits.  with washing clothes, doing laundry and showering its a busy
hot water using place. and our showers have the flow restrictors
removed.....
but a new kitchen dining room gut job is a lot more likely and
probably better of use of money:) kinda nervous the economy may hurt
our income:( and gasoline is killing my service business- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
With shower restrictors removed you have to be real carefull, and
measure shower output since tankless are real specific on Gpm and the
amount of temp rise, [ on the coldest day, when gas pressure is low
and everything gas is on, water is 38f incomming] you still need a hot
shower. For many a cheap unit would not work, but I guess that really
depends on your incomming mains gpm.
Don Ocean
2008-03-20 08:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by ransley
Post by h***@aol.com
my tankless add on was only for use when familiy is visiting, the
remainder of the time my 50 gallon high btu tank is fine.
now 7 people pile in here, and it can become a problem espically when
incoming water temperature is 40 degrees
Its alot of money to put in a tankless and not get the savings year
around, first you need to get the supply tested with all other gas
apliances running to be sure no upgrade is neded. Do 2 people shower
now at the same time, I dont think you will benefit having a tankless
before a tank and it will actualy cost more to run since both units
burners are probably near in efficency, I put my tankless after my
tank with bypass valves incase my old tank leaks, but i havnt used it
since installing the tankless, the cheap Bosch.
its more of a idle thought, the minor standby losses of a regular tank
dont bother me, and our tank is plenty big enough, except when family
visits. with washing clothes, doing laundry and showering its a busy
hot water using place. and our showers have the flow restrictors
removed.....
but a new kitchen dining room gut job is a lot more likely and
probably better of use of money:) kinda nervous the economy may hurt
our income:( and gasoline is killing my service business
Thank your lucky stars you don't own a long haul trucking business.
Price diesel for a rude awakening.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Don Ocean
2008-03-20 08:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
my tankless add on was only for use when familiy is visiting, the
remainder of the time my 50 gallon high btu tank is fine.
now 7 people pile in here, and it can become a problem espically when
incoming water temperature is 40 degrees
While the Tankless water heater does have certain benefits.. What
happens in a very large home with long plumbing runs? In the Tank
heaters we run a gravity loop to insure there is hot water immediately
available at each hot water tap. We insulate hot water feeder lines to
contain the heat longer. Now the only real good method I can see for
Tankless heaters is either to have several at different locations and a
very rich plumber at the end of such endeavor or some type of powered
circulating system which is still storing hot water in advance. It
appears to me that the best bang for the dollar is a tank water heater
with full insulation. And if necessary an insulated gravity loop..
Efficient and silent!
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Donna Ohl
2008-03-24 02:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
A GUI is available to look up the efficiency of any water heater,
residential or commercial at http://www.gamapower.org

For example, residential hot water heater efficiency can be obtained at
http://www.gamapower.org/water.php

Or, just call GAMA at 908-464-8200

Donna
Don Wiss
2008-03-24 03:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Ohl
Post by Don Wiss
I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
A GUI is available to look up the efficiency of any water heater,
residential or commercial at http://www.gamapower.org
For example, residential hot water heater efficiency can be obtained at
http://www.gamapower.org/water.php
What a poorly designed page! I gave up. Most annoying is each time you
return to the page to make a change it clears all your input away and you
have to reinput everything.

And it does not seem to include the model GPHE-50 (AO Smith Vertex) that I
just had installed.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
SRN
2008-03-24 03:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Do you not believe the manufacturer that it's 90% efficient? Are you trying
to verify their claims or what?
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/res_gas/ARG-SS01306.pdf
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
Post by Don Wiss
I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
A GUI is available to look up the efficiency of any water heater,
residential or commercial at http://www.gamapower.org
For example, residential hot water heater efficiency can be obtained at
http://www.gamapower.org/water.php
What a poorly designed page! I gave up. Most annoying is each time you
return to the page to make a change it clears all your input away and you
have to reinput everything.
And it does not seem to include the model GPHE-50 (AO Smith Vertex) that I
just had installed.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
SRN
2008-03-24 03:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
A GUI is available to look up the efficiency of any water heater,
residential or commercial at http://www.gamapower.org
For example, residential hot water heater efficiency can be obtained at
http://www.gamapower.org/water.php
What a poorly designed page! I gave up. Most annoying is each time you
return to the page to make a change it clears all your input away and you
have to reinput everything.
And it does not seem to include the model GPHE-50 (AO Smith Vertex) that I
just had installed.
Go to link - PDF file - pg. 15 (document page 217) 4th entry down for A.O.
Smith
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/BD9C57BA8477D8E185256E9000606CD0/$FILE/12-07-gas-cwh.pdf

Also:
http://www.saskenergy.com/saving_energy/EligibleCondensingWaterHeaters.pdf
Bubba
2008-03-24 13:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
Post by Don Wiss
I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
A GUI is available to look up the efficiency of any water heater,
residential or commercial at http://www.gamapower.org
For example, residential hot water heater efficiency can be obtained at
http://www.gamapower.org/water.php
What a poorly designed page! I gave up. Most annoying is each time you
return to the page to make a change it clears all your input away and you
have to reinput everything.
And it does not seem to include the model GPHE-50 (AO Smith Vertex) that I
just had installed.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Are you sure maybe you just arent searching correctly?
When you do a "Run Query" and it comes back with no results
DONT hit the back button on your browser.
Use the "Modify Query" on the page. It rolls back and there is all
your past info you typed.
Bubba
Noon-Air
2008-03-24 13:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bubba
Post by Don Wiss
Post by Donna Ohl
Post by Don Wiss
I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
A GUI is available to look up the efficiency of any water heater,
residential or commercial at http://www.gamapower.org
For example, residential hot water heater efficiency can be obtained at
http://www.gamapower.org/water.php
What a poorly designed page! I gave up. Most annoying is each time you
return to the page to make a change it clears all your input away and you
have to reinput everything.
And it does not seem to include the model GPHE-50 (AO Smith Vertex) that I
just had installed.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Are you sure maybe you just arent searching correctly?
When you do a "Run Query" and it comes back with no results
DONT hit the back button on your browser.
Use the "Modify Query" on the page. It rolls back and there is all
your past info you typed.
Bubba
But....but.... but.... thats just too easy!! it makes too much sense!!
c***@gmail.com
2008-03-24 22:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wiss
I'd like to switch to a direct vent water heater. Looking at the A.O. Smith
site I get confused with all the models. Efficiency information is hidden.
There is no convenient chart to distinguish the models. It would seem that
ProMax Closed Combustion Power Direct-Vent
ProMax Power Vent (C3 FVIR)
Power House Sealed Shot Power Direct-Vent
Power House Power Shot Power-Vent
But I can't figure out what is different. Plus each of the above has
variants.
So, what is the most efficient 50 gallon tank water heater with the longest
tank warranty? The run would be about 40 feet and will have a bunch of 90
degree bends.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom)
Take a look at Voyager water heaters similar to the AO Smith Cyclone.
They (Voyager) have stainless heat exchangers. It's the recovery rate
and efficiencies that you want to pay attention too.

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